Dawkins on the couch
By Mark Vernon on Sunday, October 14 2007, 19:04 - Religion - Permalink

Freud tells the story of a physician who wrote to him telling of a religious experience. The physician had been a believer, until one day the corpse of a 'sweet old woman' came into his surgery. In an instant, it seemed to him impossible to believe anymore. Except that later that day a voice in his head told him not to doubt God. And over the next few days, proof of God's existence seemed to come to him from all around. He wrote to his 'brother' physician, Freud, to ask him to pray fervently that he too might believe.
Freud analyses the letter thus. The 'sweet old woman' unconsciously reminded the physician of his mother (only this explains why for the horrors he would have seen as a doctor it was this relatively mild one that struck him with such force). That she is dead causes an Oedipal reaction, whereby he blames God/Father for the death and ceases to believe. The voice though is an Oedipal counter-current, a God/Father warning him against such a revolt. This precipitates his religious experience. That the cause is Oedipal is sealed for Freud by the fact that the physician referred to him as 'brother' (a lovely example of Freud noticing a detail that tells, as it were, all).
I have sometimes wondered why no enterprising journalist, as far as I know, hasn't had a dig around in Richard Dawkins' past in order to find the cause of his revolt against religion. But perhaps there is no need. It is all there in The God Delusion. A little analysis draws attention to three psychoanalytically significant things that stand out in the book.
The first, that one can be certain God does not exist. With science, Dawkins has killed him. This, of course, is for Freud an Oedipal slaying of the God/Father.
Second, that the book is written to convert people to atheism by 'consciousness raising', that is by encouraging them to leave their parents' religion, as Dawkins describes it, as indeed he has done. In other words, Dawkins envisages his sympathetic readers as brothers and sisters and his writing as a method of acquiring a new family.
Third - and this perhaps is the telling detail - in the preface Dawkins begins with a reference to his wife (the quote is 'As a child...' which is to say that, like the Mother, she is innocent of any actions of the God/Father); and ends by thanking her for coaxing him 'through all my hesitations and self-doubts, not just with moral support and witty suggestions for improvement, but by reading the entire book aloud to me, at two different stages in its development, so I could apprehend very directly how it might seem to a reader other than myself.' This excessive exercise (twice) in objective assurance ('a reader other than myself') from an innocent, consolatory female (his wife) is the maternal figure, and completes the picture in Dawkins' religio-psychic drama.
The analysis? Dawkins' atheism is grounded in a psychological murder of the God/Father. That much is not interesting. But he plays out the Oedipal ramifications of this act in a particularly striking way. The guilt is buried in the consolation he finds from his wife (had she only agree to read it through, say, once or had Dawkins not successful resolved his doubts in the transference between them during that process, then who knows: the book might never have been sent to his agent). That the book justifies such an Oedipal reading is sealed in the description of his envisaged audience, 'brothers and sisters', or in Oedipal terms, those with whom he shares his crime. For Dawkins, the Oedipal counter-current manifests itself not in hearing divine voices but in an unquestioning commitment to a new paternal figure/institution, namely modern science (note the element of trust in science that is necessary to make this commitment, since science alone does not disprove God/murder the Father, only makes God's existence/Father's survival improbable). Science is Dawkin's adoptive Father figure now that he has done away with the old one.
Thus, Dawkins has found a completely different resolution to the Oedipus complex compared with the physician who wrote to Freud. Freud notes that such analysis cannot account for the full variety of relationships that people have to religion/God/Father. But he thinks it works in the physician's case. Maybe in Dawkins' too - and the thought of it at least amused me for half an hour. But why? Hmm. No doubt another Oedipal story...










Comments
You've posted this at perfect timing. I'm reading The God Delusion right now and have been enjoying it thus far.
I tire of Freud and his (supposedly) ubiquitous potential, but I have to say your analysis is quite brilliant and, at the least, amusing.
Western religion (in particular) is entirely about Oedipal projections--the Parental Deity.
Atheists such as Dawkins quite rightly dont subscribe to the childish emotional asana that underlies the usual childishly nieve self-serving mommy-daddy "creator" god religiosity.
1. www.aboutadidam.org/readings/parental_deity/index.html
In this essay the author points out that EVERYTHING that we do is a dramatisation of our unexamined and unresolved childhood Oedipal patterning---no exceptions. And that the resolution of this binding dilemma is the necessary key to growing up for real.
2. www.dabase.org/beyoedip.htm
These four essays provide (each in their own way) a very dramatic criticism of the collective Oedipal drama underlying conventional Christian god-religion and culture. The disembodied male principle at war with the demand to fully incarnate as the body (the female principle) first as the necessary basis for right life.
1. www.beezone.com/AdiDa/jesusandme.html
2. www.dabase.org/2armP1.htm#ch2
3. www.adidamla.org/newsletters/newsletter-aprilmay2006.pdf
4. www.dabase.org/meaning.htm
I am a casual visitor to your website. I have just read your review of Dawkin's God Delusion in Philosophy Now, and was interested enough to take the time to check out your website, which you have advertised at the end of the article. I was hoping for a clearer picture of how you come to justify your agnosticism (which, needless to say, I didn't discover), and for further insights into what I regard as very valid criticisms of the book, or should I say The Book since the God Delusion is far more relevant to our day and age than The Other Book. But I have niggling doubts about The Book. Firstly I agree with you that Dawkins uses the Straw Man fallacy. He is much too keen to attack the softer targets, "the Ultimate Boeing 747", than to confront the more seriously thought out positions of people like Swinburne and Rowe, who have fallen back on lines of defence by envoking God as a special kind of being outside of the normal ideas of space and time and almost incomprehensible to the puny minds of humankind. However, to give Dawkins his due, he only wants to make the broad bold statement "there is No God" for the average reader, and not get embroiled in deep religious philosophical debate. In fact this is the point:- he doesn't want to make any statements that are merely speculation and not capable of proof one way or the other. Time and again throughout The Book, he expresses sympathy for those enlightened thinkers from previous generations who now hold what seem today like retro-views on such matters as race, slavery and feminism. Far from insisting on dividing the world into atheists and theists,as you have said, Dawkins is only too ready to admit that there were and are agnostics, and reading between the lines, I get the feeling that Dawkins himself may have gone through an agnostic phase before settling for atheism. Nevertheless, and secondly, I agree with you that a moderate belief in God doesn't necessarily provide cover for extremism, or if it does, it needs a lot more explanation than is given in The Book. I have my doubts that people like the Salvos are doing harm by believing in God. Although here is a thought. Shortly after reading the God Delusion, I wrote to my mother (a life-long Christian)saying that I loved the Phillip Pullman "Dark Materials Trilogy" and found the books to be wonderfully written, and for me, at least, a better read than the equally marvellous (and more humorous) Harry Potter novels. My mother wrote back to me saying that she didn't want to read Phillip Pullman because she didn't think she would like what he has written. I was saddened to think that my mother's religion could make her refrain from enjoying such well-written books. Anyway, she suggested I get my daughter read "Cry the Beloved Country", (of all books!) presumably to prevent her grand-daughter being polluted by Pullman's irreligious writings under my influence. Anyway, to return to Freud and the God Delusion, are you seriously trying to tell me that Dawkins was subconsciously enlisting the aid of a mother-figure to destroy the father? I like to play chess, and there are many chess-players (from Reuben Fine onwards) who used to say that Chess was a game in which the strongest piece is the mother and she is used to destroy the weaker King. It makes for interesting psychobabble, but do such musings have any real point to make, other than as a put down for something that deserves better. The Book is so far out of your league that you maybe ought to be more careful before criticising it.
Maybe Dawkin's atheism is grounded in rationality and logic. Or, put another way, your analysis is silly.
Dude. Can't you wank in the privacy of your bedroom like the rest of us?
Seriously. Arguing that *not* believing in the all-powerful father figure of God is somehow oedipal by invoking Daddy Science as a father figure is just a tiny bit silly.
Isn't there an irony in criticizing Dawkins by invoking that pseudoscientist, Freud?
Well the whole point is that Dawkins' atheism is not just grounded in rationality and logic. For example, in The God Delusion, he argues that it is wildly unlikely that human beings exist and yet they do; and wildly unlikely that God exists, and yet... er.... God doesn't. The question is not probabilities but actualities, the thing that no-one in history has objectively been able to settle in relation to God. So on purely logical grounds he should be agnostic. That he is not wholly rational or logical - as indeed is no human being - is what so interests Freud. He tries to account for all the evidence when looking at why people behave in the way they do. He has to tell pretty amazing stories in order to do so - and along with most Freudians today, I think it is a mistake to think of him narrowly as a scientist; more of a non-fiction Shakespeare or psychoanalytic Socrates (who, incidentally, was well-known for his irony). But amazing stories aren't necessarily simply wrong - witness multiverses, say. They rather reflect the amazing world in which we live and the astonishing creatures human beings are.
What patronising twaddle! Males owning or driving nice toys used to get this snide Freudian ad hominem nonsense all the time; its rather dropped out of fashion since Freud has been shown so fraudulent.
You claim that "the whole point is that Dawkins' atheism is not just grounded in rationality and logic." Then you pull psycho-babble out of your arse as an extended sneer... that isn't replying from a standpoint of rationality, is it?
Mark, he says in his book that he is an agnostic, strictly spoken.
I thought you read the book?
ChrisPer - The problem is that rational explanations of things can be inadequate, especially when it comes to human beings, so you have to resort to other discourses - like novels - though of course you have to assess them too, and many would agree that Freud is inadequate, though not fraudulent I think.
JMX - Do you really think that The God Delusion is the book of an agnostic?! It is because I have read the book that I think it clear he is not. Rather, he would claim all agnostics for himself and make them wanna-be atheists.
No, but then that is not what I wrote.
OK you claim you read the book, do you remember when he talks about that 7-part scale (1 - total believer, 7 - total atheist)
He says there that 1 and 7 are only theoretical possibilities, and considers himself a 6 (agnostic), bordering on 7.
Of course he is, more of an atheist than an agnostic bordering on deism, but still, chapter 4 isn't called "Why There Almost Certainly(!) is No God" for nothing.
JMX - that might be the level of his rational commitment to atheism - around, say, 90%. But his emotional commitment to it is clearly total. Hence the need to turn to psychology to understand him better.
"Hence the need to turn to psychology to understand him better."
You mean... that wasn't a joke?
Very good!
Mark,
Here's the thing--a huge number of philosophers are atheists (in my personal experience), and not agnostics. They are pretty smart folks, well versed in logic. They may all be wrong, but it's strange to say they're all so absurdly wrong that psychoanalysts need to be called in to explain what's going on.
In any event, I disagree with you about the logic here. Must I go around "not knowing" about the resurrection, the viriginity of Mary, the afterlife? Must I "not know" about reincarnation, the holiness of cows, the whole pantheon of Hindu Gods, the possibility of Nirvana?
Is there something special about the primary tenet of western monotheism? If so...good heavens!...why?
I recommend the book Philosophers without Gods (ed. Antony). It's got some great autobiographical essays about how people grow up to be atheists. Really good. I can see how Dawkins' pugnacious style might bother you. You'll find the tone is very different, and downright amicable, in many of these essays.
Jean - The quick answer is that I think we must indeed always go around not knowing about God, if you want to be human. Animals don't know to ask the question. Angels, to deploy the myth of beings who see divinity face to face, know the answer but they cannot choose to live otherwise. Our freedom comes from being in between. Religious stories about resurrections, virgin births and so on, will come and go: their value lies precisely in their provisionality - that they worked once for some people seeking a sense of transcendence but that that transcendence was always more than the story could grasp - which is why doctrinaire religion, as in you must believe this or that, always gets it wrong. I'll get the book you recommend. If you want one in return I think Karen Armstrong's latest, 'The Bible: the Biography', brilliantly encapsulates the agnostic spirit and where today people, intelligent or not, get it wrong about religion.
I am fond of Karen Armstrong. Loved her book The Spiral Staircase. She strikes me as someone who very much wants to get back to believing, but just doesn't. She likes religion, but doesn't have it herself. (I relate to that attitude...) I've been thinking about reading The Bible (her book!), and will have a look.
I think you're writing off other people's deeply held beliefs as transient "stories." Hindus are very very serious about reincarnation. The idea is probably just as old as western monotheism. It's fundamental to their whole world view and way of life. I bet you are not on the fence about it. So you are privileging one religious idea (the God of western monotheism), and I can see no good reason for that. The evidence is not 100% against reincarnation, but I'm not agnostic about it, and I imagine you aren't either.
In any case--I don't see anything pathological or "inhuman" (as you say) about being an atheist (or taking one of the other positions, for that matter). It's true a person who went around "knowing" all of the time would have a problem, but there's lots of stuff to not know about. I'm a pretty open person with a lot of "don't knows" especially in the area of ethics. God (Jesus, reincarnation, all of that) just doesn't happen to be one of my "don't knows."
Jean - I'm not writing them off. Stories are weighty things in my book; perhaps like Picasso said of art - lies that show truths. The problem in the scientific milieu is that the assessment of that weight is reduced simply to whether they are true or not in an empirical sense. I don't understand that, since it seems obvious to me that truth can be that but is also more than that, and indeed the more important the truths the less useful evidence is in assessing them, as in relation say to love.
Also, whilst I'd admit to being a huge fan of Plato (though not necessarily a Platonist if you can forgive the quibble), I don't think I'm privileging the West; it is partly what I know best for sure, but what I know of Eastern religion suggests to me that ultimately a unified idea of deity lies behind nearly all religions - the key being to avoid idolatry, the making of the deity in your own image: Hindus avoid it by pilling up divinities; Buddhists by not asking questions about God; Muslims by no images and so on. (Part of the appeal of Plato to me is that he is a synthesis of East and West, as say Iris Murdoch pointed out.)
On something specific like reincarnation, if you forced me I'd say I don't believe in it, but I'd prefer not to have an opinion on it, since I don't believe much rests for me on whether or not I believe in it. That would be different from, say, the divinity of Christ since that is a question culturally much closer to home (which again I don't believe hand on heart but I can see why people believe it, which is to say I understand the value of so doing).
As to being commited to not knowing, the only issue in relation to which this matters is not knowing in relation to God. The doctrinal details of any particular religion are secondary issues - their aim is to point to God. This is actually quite orthodox, as in the immanent and transcendent aspects of the Trinity: the immanent - as in the God that believers see is triune; the transcendent - as in the God that no-one sees, well who knows. However, in relation to the secondary issues, even then I'd say the important question is not to decide whether there is scientific evidence for them but rather on whether believing in them is skillful for living, as a Buddhist might say.
I imagine that this is true in a different way with the amicable atheists of the book you recommend. Their atheism doesn't entail them expending effort undermining religion as if empirical proof is what counts. Rather, being born that way has led them to merely finding it unconvincing - or rather not even unconvincing but bemusing perhaps. I feel the same about the synthesis of Taoism and Confucianism whenever I go to China.
Incidentally, I think that Armstrong is onto something more than just trying to believe in one religion or another again - that something resonating with my own searching through these things too.
The irony is too great not to mention--I don't have time to respond right now because I have a meeting to attend at my synagogue. I'll get back to defending atheism later!
Well do you know when I left the church I did investigate becoming a Jew, since in the right congregation it doesn't matter much what you believe; it is the practice that counts. But then, perhaps because it is not just a matter of making the right confession, it is so hard to become a Jew!
Back from synagogue...!
Look, from the very fact that I just spent two hours there in the company of religious folk, I think I have proof that atheism doesn't have to involve all the vices you associate with it. I'm open to religion, see "meaning" in the stories and experiences it offers, etc. etc. Still, I believe, without being over-certain or dogmatic about it, that none of the supernatural stuff is a plain, straightforward, reality "out there". Actually, I think a person can be a much less pro-religion atheist than me and still be perfectly virtuous (I'm thinking of my husband...) but I'll leave it there.
As for the eastern religions-- Some books make Hinduism and Buddhism seem more like western monotheism, but those tend to have an underlying agenda--making eastern thinking look more familiar so that westerners will be more comfortable with it. (I think Karen Armstrong is that kind of a writer.) Other books make these religions seem as foreign as can be. Tons of Gods, Shiva's phallus, Ganesh's elephant head, 30 million gods in each cow, reincarnation, caste, all of that.
I'm not convinced that God is the idea underlying it all...so do wonder whether an equal-opportunity agnostic wouldn't wind up having to "not know" about an awful lot of strange stuff.
It's a wonderful expression but I don't think I'm an equal-opportunity agnostic: in their actual manifestations religions are too culturally specific for that (it's in this sense that I think I must be a Christian agnostic, rather like some atheists have said they are Catholic or Protestant). And I'm sorry if I've given the impression that atheism automatically entails vices. Obviously not, not least in your own good case! (If the vice you have in mind is reductive dogmatism then some atheists can be accused of it as much as some believers, and no doubt agnostics too.) Armstrong's purpose is no doubt apologetic but I like her because she also doesn't pull the punches on, say, the Buddhist demand of egolessness - something that many accounts of Western Buddhism, as if it were a therapy, do.
Mark, Between a Christian agnostic and a Jewish atheist there shouldn't be any vast disagreement. Bottom line, we both like Karen Armstrong. I think that proves it. I thought my "vice" interpretation was accurate...now I really do need to read your book about atheism.
Please tell me that you weren't serious in this piece and that you intended to be humorous! Freudian psychoanalysis is the last tool to use when trying to understand anything about human psychology. (I should know, I am a 'shrink'.) Think in terms of his description of psychological defense mechanisms where those are appropriate, but forget the ridiculous 'Oedipal' and 'Electra' concepts. Perhaps the Oedipal complex tells us something of Freud's psyche, but the potential insights stop right there. I don't think that it is particularly difficult to understand Dawkin's motivations??"he says himself that he values truth, life, and humanity.
Mark, I think I must have been one of those who initially got filtered out by your aggressive spam filter, and probably that is the reason why my comment appears twice (see above). There are two types of agnostics - those who believe there is a possibility of finding out the truth but we are not presently in possession of all the facts but one day we might be able to ascertain the truth and presumably become gnostics, and others who believe that we shall never be able to find out the truth, if such a thing exists, because we are so limited by our human condition, and we are perpetually condemned to being in the dark. So there is a clear distinction between the two groups - the not-presently-knowing and the never-able-to-know. I have no truck with the first group. They are benign. All I would say to them is "try harder". However Mark you appear to be in the second group. From what I read above you seem to be saying that we are in between angels (who know there is a God) and animals (who can't ask the question "Is there a God?"), and we have the freedom to choose to believe or not believe, and we will be forever in that state of uncertainty. This group of agnostics is far more malignant, and it is these agnostics which cannot be assimilated into atheism. I wouldn't like to put words into the mouth of a genius, but Ricahrd Dawkins appears to be "claiming" the first group as potential atheists, but I believe he would not be trying to claim the second group. With those people, I shall let him speak for himself "By all means be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out." There is a real world, and we have to live in it. We must be social in order to preserve our personal health and well-being and for cultural advancement, and we need to communicate our thoughts between each other, and we are definitely not totally rational. Humankind can be proud of the fact that we have made huge strides in our understanding of the real world. In some instances, we have had to accept irrationalities in order to better understand the world.Quantum Science more than any other branch of Physical Chemistry - more so even than Relativity - has given us great insight into the mechanics of how atoms work (e.g. electrons in quantum levels, with the probability of an electron outside of the atom), and scientists accept both probability and lack of comprehension as a basis for their understanding of quantumphysics. How irrational is that? And yet, scientists like atheists don't blinker themselves like the agnostics who say that God is ultimately unknowable. I think I have said enough on this topic, but I would like to leave with one last comment. Jean Kraztz seems to have no qualms about attending a religious meeting as a participant even though she is an atheist. I find this idea stange. It is like George Washington owning slaves and preaching equality for all. It is this issue that above all is central to the zeitgeist - should we support religion even though we know it is crap, or should we liberate ourselves from dogma and start living our lives free of lies and decit which inevitably (?) lead to wars and hatred.
Johnboon, When I said above I had to rush off to my synagogue, it was because I lead its work against the genocide in Darfur. We have a project with national support that raises hundreds of dollars a week for the International Rescue Committee and the Save Darfur Coalition. So--Washington and his slaves? Very funny.
I do go to religious services as well occasionally, and if you don't give that any thought, it must seem very strange. I will keep it simple: Thought a vegetarian, I like barbecue restaurants. How can that be? I like the vegetables.
Jean, I am glad you have found the right church for you - a church that readily accepts atheists among its congregation is great. It is a bit of a contradiction, but I am all for it. I would like to see all churches with congregations made up entirely of atheists. Maybe then we can stop the pretence and play-acting. I admire your courage in being able to come out of the closet and tell people you are an atheist. I hope all your fellow congregationers know that you are an atheist. You tell them, don't you? Being part of such a supportive community must feel good. Indeed there are probably lots of atheists coming out like you; you are not so special. But there are many religious folk out there who may not be like you and may not be so tolerant. You can pick and choose what you want from your church, but there will be some members of your church who accept the whole claptrap from a belief in the Chosen to campaigning Zionism. They too may be helping needy children, but they are probably also offering support - maybe just verbal - to causes which you wouldn't subscribe to. Isn't your goodness being tarnished by associating with those kind of religious people? Or are you on a mission to convert all your fellow parishioners by showing them how a good citizen should behave?
Johnboon - With all due respect I believe you want a world that simply does not exist. The risk you face is that of the puritans who would rather expel those people who disagree with them and make things too complicated, than find ways of living with them. Hence, I believe, lies the remarkably intolerant attitude of people like Dawkins. It really hasn't been better said than by Daniel J Boorstin: I have observed that the world has suffered far less from ignorance than from pretensions to knowledge. It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress. In fact, I think the agnostic spirit has little to do with whether or not you believe in God. Plenty of religious people would admit that God is ultimately unknown; indeed that is the essence of belief as opposed to idolatry as far as I can see. Similarly, there are atheists, like Jean if I may speak for her, who would make no claim to have a monopoly on truth and are quite prepared to acknowledge the limitations of their own positions. Alternatively, there have been both atheistic and theist ideologues that are malign. Which ??" to bring us back to the original post ??" is why having the rational argument is often of itself not enough to understand where people are coming from. Psychology counts.
And just to respond to Salient: no I dont go along with Freuds full blown Oedipal theories, though there is probably more to it than most people might like to think. He changed his mind on the matter too. But I do think Freud was onto something key when he argued that we are often if not mostly unknown to ourselves. Hence simply talking Dawkins at face value ??" innocently motivated, as it were, solely by the transparent virtues of truth, life and humanity ??" seems an inadequate explanation for the emotion that this debate provokes.
"no I dont go along with Freuds full blown Oedipal theories, though there is probably more to it than most people might like to think."
Thank goodness for that, Mark. Freud was on to something before he recanted. Oedipal and Electra compexes are useless in clinical practice.
"But I do think Freud was onto something key when he argued that we are often if not mostly unknown to ourselves."
Some people 'know' considerably less about themselves than others, and it was in this area that he came close to understanding before fleeing into silly concoctions. Those people are very 'troubled' for reasons outside normal development. The highly specific and rather predictable areas affected by difficulties with lack of self-knowledge do not hinge on motivations such as Dawkins describes of himself. Most, comparatively untraumatized individuals actually know themselves quite well, particularly when it comes to less emotional, cognitive reasoning.
"Hence simply talking Dawkins at face value ??" innocently motivated, as it were, solely by the transparent virtues of truth, life and humanity ??" seems an inadequate explanation for the emotion that this debate provokes."
I have watched Dawkins interviewed and I have read Dawkins. He may care passionately about science, truth, understanding the universe and life, and humanistic behavior, but his emotional level strikes me as quite moderate. My career has comprised discerning emotional reactions and analyzing underlying psychological mechanisms, so I feel qualified to psychologically assess what I have seen and read. I have observed that the bulk of emotion concerning Dawkins' pro-evolution, atheistic, humanistic approach is displayed on the *other* side, where theists get mysterical and descend further into emotion-laden ad hominem accusations and fallacies of logic. In other words, as a friend accurately observed, "Hell hath no fury like a religionist scorned".
For example, in The God Delusion, [Dawkins] argues that it is wildly unlikely that human beings exist and yet they do; and wildly unlikely that God exists, and yet... er.... God doesn't. The question is not probabilities but actualities, the thing that no-one in history has objectively been able to settle in relation to God. So on purely logical grounds he should be agnostic."
Dawkins IS agnostic, as you'd know if you have read the book. The question concerns actualities insofar as a supernatural deity either exists or it does not. Most armchair philosophers like to troop out 'what is truth?' rather than the more relevant 'what is existence?' at this point. Some religious individuals, recognizing the enormous volume of evidence that removes miraculous explanations from contention, shrink this purported supernatural deity (for which there is not only no evidence, but counter-evidence) down to the confines of deism. Since it is logically impossible to disprove a non-existence, purist realists recognize that there is a vanishingly small possibility/probability that a supernatural deity exists (particularly because this is a conveniently invented, ineffable, non-category). Agnosticism may be the purist philosophical position, but it is not the most rational position in face of *all* the evidence. The scientific evidence eliminates religious claims *including* creationism, revelation, subjective religious experiences, and miracles; the evidence *includes* horrendously inconsistent scriptures, refuted theology, failed 'proofs' for Gods existence, the psychological need for ignorant peoples to invent deities and afterlives. The evidence also includes the assaults on knowledge and reason, personal hypocrisies, intolerance, non-morality, violence, and power-mongering of absolutist fundamentalisms.
Put all of that nonsense together and many rationalists, humanists, and scientists are angered. Perhaps this is the emotion (frustration, anger, disgust) that you detect beneath the otherwise rational position of atheists. However, as a therapist I can assure you that anger, frustration, and disgust are always secondary emotions??"they follow upon other primary motivations like love of logic, truth, understanding, learning, fairness, peace, humanity. These are not unknown emotions buried in the subconscious, rather they are very much transparent and reasonable reactions to holier-than-thou assaults on basic personal values.
"That he is not wholly rational or logical - as indeed is no human being - is what so interests Freud."
What is your evidence that Dawkins is "not wholly rational or logical" to such a degree that it would have interested Freud at all, and what is your evidence that *not wholly rational or logical * is what 'so' interested Freud? I'd say that *that* is what interested Piaget. I think that Freud was interested in the psychological sequelae of childhood traumas, though he would not admit it even to himself.
Salient, Dawkins calls himself an atheist. I think that's the right term for someone who believes there's no God. Agnostics are on the fence, take no position either way. But then there's the issue of degree of confidence. Dawkins says 6 out of 7. Of course he's fiercer than that--your comments on why that's so make a lot of sense to me anyway.
Jean, I call myself an atheist at times, I also call myself an agnostic at other times. Dawkins also refers to himself in both contexts. From what little I've read of Mark, I've come to understand him as agnostic in his approach to god whereas I'm agnostic as to the idea of a god. Hence for this reason I'm an atheist with regard to how I live on a day to day basis; I live without gods or the belief in them.
Dawkins may indeed appear, to some, to be fiercer than a 6 out of 7. I suspect that this is at times when he is advancing an argument but then most people that are advancing a particular position often come across fiercer than they actually are. The clarity of clear language can be perceived as dogmatic and uncompromising to some listeners/readers as it often doesn't cover much more than the thrust of the argument. Which of course raises the 'fear of the consequences' that most people seem to sense when hearing an argument that is in conflict with ones own beliefs. (Maybe it's time to re-state the idea of a liberal education before an education geared only to the needs of targets and employment.)
My own agnostic approach lends itself to other areas of my life so in part I don't feel as threatened as I witness some do, which is why Mark's claimed agnosticism perplexes me so much, for it doesn't seem to be as universal as he sometimes claims.
Perhaps the answer lies in that phrase 'passionate agnostic', an oxymoron in which Mark seems to have cornered the market if my Google search was anything to go by! Actually I rather like it; after all why should the all the passion belong to religious zealots or evangelical atheists? And yet, there is a problem, because even the most moderate person can begin to sound extreme if they start to promote their position, suggesting that it might be normative. I guess the truth is that we are more willing to regard the passion of those whose views we share as understandable, whilst the same passion in others may seem irrational.
Peter - That's an interesting thought. I guess I would argue that the passion of passionate agnosticism originates in the feeling that personally it makes sense; and then, perhaps like Socratic sceptics, comes to feel that there is something of value in the attitude given the current state of affairs. I'd argue it's not normative, for the obvious reason that most aren't agnostics but also in this way: I remember Tony Benn once saying how he always sided more with the prophets than the priests in the Old Testaments - prophets being those who called the present into question, of course, not told the future. I have sympathy with that feeling. Mark
This was very interesting but it still misses Freud's later inclusion of the "death-drive" (todestreib) which is of course a reluctance to approach the problem of death, or as Lacan put it "the death drive is simply the mask behind the symbolic order's repition" meaning if we want to believe the world has meaning we symbolize it, and hence remove ourselves from the picture and become a symbol amongst the many. this came mostly from Melanie Klein in cases where the child was playing with toys (aggressively) presenting a re-enactment of the Complex, yet after killing the character (father) the child brought him back, fatalistically this would continue. the result is a split in pyschonalysis till today, klein and Lacan stayed freudian in that this was a meta-structure in that ALL humanity wants to rid itself of the dreadful fear of death, and wants to return to a more secure and primordial place (mothers womb). this constantly contradictory subject is violent in the field of analysis. for example when soldiers came back from WWI and it was noticed that they keep repeating traumatic incidents over and over, freud made the claim that this is the job of the death drive, to repeat until to point of self-destruction. this is really a weird subject, but it has done away with eros as the primordial drive, and if we follow lacan, has completely been replaced by the death drive, since all drives are symbolized and want their own destruction. this is easy to explain for example sex in actuality reaches its end in the orgasm and alleviates the agent of the dreadful desire (or drive) so hence sexual drive is directed towards not having a sexual any more, so the drive is a negation of itself.
I do not wish to write more nonsense....hahhaha I enjoyed your blog very much
Mahyar